>This monologue has often been a roller-coaster of feelings, where I try to anticipate things.
Stop, stop it. Live in the day. 2 Corinthians 12:9, idk why that quote but like, sometimes we have to stop feeling and anticipating and live in the day and give it up to God. Just have a profitable day.
>Because of this there is a peculiar arrogance by some who assume that having an internal monologue makes one intellectually superior to those who don’t.
Thank you for saying this. Needs to be said
>There is a huge difference between rational self-doubt as and endless self-flagellation. As I’ve built up discipline, had time to reflect, and made a lot of progress losing weight I’ve begun to understand how much an internal monologue can get in the way of self-mastery.
Living this I feel like I’m over here with the slam poetry snaps of approval.
>I wholeheartedly believe that an inner monologue is a form of hyper-vigilance that develops as a survival strategy to some form of extreme or chronic insecurity.
I question this, if this were so, our inner monologues would be infallible. They’d be productive. Yet they are poisoned. More over, there are people with internal monologues that AREN’T toxic. I question (not challenge) what your philosophical diet is. Shitty inputs = shitty outputs, and shit stains…
You can purchase any perspective you want, you can look for any perspective you want on YouTube. What responsibility have YOU taken to seek healthier, higher perspectives, vs have your biases implicitly supported under a cloak of intellectualism or discovery? Part of the problem is you probably don’t know better until someone or something introduces it to you.
>Very often you’ll see people nit-picking language used on particular issues, yet others just continue on without any issue.
Fuck those people, semantic games are as big a sign of mental insufficiency as is the pattern of one talking about people over, ideas. You might call this thought ironic, but really we’re discussing behavior, not a particular person who demonstrates it.
>I can only guess, but I’m convinced those of us with hyperactive minds “can’t look away” from tragedy and terror. It can be just keeping up with the news, or investigating various things, but we often fool ourselves into thinking the negativity has no cost on our psyche. I think the rational impulse to recognize and understand dangers goes into overdrive in a self-destructive capacity.
But unfortunately, until we learn we can’t save the world we’re always going to be miserable and ON. All we can do is be strength for others and hit phase 6 as fast as possible. Loving Shepards to the sheep as it were.
>I won’t tell you to “digital disconnect” and just take breaks from it all. That’s a nice step, but I know from experience that’s a LOT easier said than done. I think the better place to start is to be more judicious about what information you’re exposing yourself to constantly. I think it’s reasonable to be afraid of hiding from the world, but it is important to remember you have to actually be able to face it, not just absorb the stimulus.
I notice something in you I feel like I see in myself, so I’m going to put this out there. Do you notice how everything you say leads back to the online realm? The theme of this essay is more or less “IRL interactions lead to Mal-adaptions. The Digital space is what I have now and it’s just as abusive, so I need to be more selective about my digital space intake” Have you ever thought that maybe the solution is getting to know yourself in stillness and in quiet, so you can find your people in real life, where there is way less toxicity / manipulation, etc? It’s just weird how everything with you goes back to the digital world and trying to make the digital world work, knowing only tangentially that you’ve had a shit experience in real life. I get that, I’ve never been as big as you but I have been pretty fat and unseemly and I know how the world treats people like us and how easy it is to be jaded, but what are you doing to get to know the new you that’s coming to live apart from technology.I say all this with love, and I hope you know I’m paying attention to your writing and getting to know YOU. I want the best for you and if this is too forward or out of turn, I apologize.
>Developing self-awareness is paradoxically a critical step. We may think by overthinking we’re self-aware, but it’s highly likely that the mental malware is driving us to avoid being self-aware.
Got spanked, humiliated and humbled by this lesson this year.
? You keep saying “Live life” but nothing about this has anything to do with life. It’s
I wanted to break this out into a separate thread, because it seems to be the root of our disagreement which this piece certainly didn't resolve. (which is fine)
"I question this, if this were so, our inner monologues would be infallible. They’d be productive. Yet they are poisoned.
Why would they be infallible? Nothing about us is, I'm not sure why this would be any different. You can injure a muscle by straining it too much, not all adaptations succeed even if they are the right ones.
"More over, there are people with internal monologues that AREN’T toxic."
I wholeheartedly agree, in many ways that's the main thrust of the piece. The toxicity is a variable (sorry for the computer word) that can be changed over time. I think it's important to consider how one goes from a toxic internal monologue to a productive one. My experience has shown me that this is possible, which lead me to wonder where they ultimately come from. I think my model is solid, but I can understand if you don't find this particularly compelling.
I would be very curious on why you think some people have internal monologues and others don't. The mainstream research on this is very sparse and I mostly just wanted to start THIS conversation. You might not see this, but I would actually LOVE to be wrong about this. I just tried to make the case as well as I could, so that the matter can be discussed in full.
The strongest argument I can think of AGAINST my position is that one could argue trauma would make one SILENCE their internal monologue. If this is true this would be highly troubling, because it would potentially mean that the majority of people are abused, rather than just the minority. But taking this position assumes that all healthy well-adjusted people have one, which many claim not to. I am genuinely curious what drives this phenomenon, and I'm very open to alternative explanations.
"I question (not challenge) what your philosophical diet is. Shitty inputs = shitty outputs, and shit stains…"
This, like the last quote in my other reply also seems needlessly combative.
>Why would they be infallible? Nothing about us is, I'm not sure why this would be any different. You can injure a muscle by straining it too much, not all adaptations succeed even if they are the right ones.
idk you logic just doesn't make sense. There is an ABUNDANCE, A SHEER FREAKING ABUNDANCE of people being treated likes crap EVERY DAY, but they continue to not have a dialog. So I don't think your correlation is causation. As well, how does it help us think our way out of our abuses, and what do you make of the fact that the inner monologue is poisoned? If it's an adaptation from abuse, why does it re-enforce the abuse?
You're arguing people can change, I agree. You're arguing their monologue can change, I agree. But I don't think abuse is a mutagenic precursor to having an inner monologue. But that's just my two cents. I'm not trying to fight you, we just seem to disagree and that's fine.
>I would be very curious on why you think some people have internal monologues and others don't.
I try not to deconstruct people anymore so I have no idea. In my past life I was a computer guy, and to be honest, It seems foolish to take guesses when billion dollar research industries can't even unlock the secret of consciousness. You think an absolute dude from texas is going to have a good insight? No way.
I will preach by saying stuff like that is why I think we're so miserable. We keeping picking at everything and everyone, Like right now. I'm not trying to argue or be combative with you, I guess I'd want to understand why it's important we explain everything about everything, why can't some things just be a mystery and us enjoy it?
>This, like the last quote in my other reply also seems needlessly combative.
I guess I can see that, I'm learning there's something about the way I talk where I'm trying to explain or analogize stuff and it comes off some sort of way. If you can help me understand that I would appreciate that, but my honest intention was just trying to straight-forwardly say "If you consume crappy depressing content, don't be suprised when you feel crappy and depressed"
This may sound like a cop-out but I wrote in the piece:
> Another detail here is that many of these things exist on a continuum. One may only need a relatively small amount of turmoil in their youth to have a particular level of adaptations. I do believe these kinds of circumstances can arise even in particularly extreme life events. I don’t see a reason to necessarily believe too strongly in a formulaic understanding of this. I definitely don’t think it’s as simple as someone having x,y,z set of experiences creates conditions a,b and c. If anything what makes this so complex is our ability to adapt to circumstances in a wide variety of ways.
My point is that none of this is simple. I am certainly not trying to say that specific forms of abuse cause specific mental quirks. I am trying to suggest that this may be one of many mechanisms at play that I find explains a lot of behavior people struggle to understand. It is perfectly fine to me that we disagree on this, I just want to explore the arguments for/against as best as I can.
"There is an ABUNDANCE, A SHEER FREAKING ABUNDANCE of people being treated likes crap EVERY DAY, but they continue to not have a dialog."
This part is interesting to me because I would say that I imagine the assaults need to be directly personal. This is just speculation on my part (as is this entire piece/argument) but I think it's absolutely plausible that many population-level trends we see are indicative that the assaults on people are absolutely taking a toll on a fundamental mental health level.
Again, I apologize for being a tad defensive and will reiterate that I do really appreciate you bringing opposing arguments to it. I am going to be thinking about this for quite some time 😅.
So one thing i will ask you in the spirit of having the conversation you're wanting to have about inner monologue: Have you ever thought that the quality of thought one exhibits having an inner monologue is what makes them a target for abuse in the first place? That it makes them sensitive or vulnerable to it or that it frustrates and angers people to the point of abuse (much like people start cussing up a storm when they're mad cause they can't express their feelings) if this is something you want to get into I'm down to take it to DMs
Thanks for the apology. I'm kinda struggling with being recieved by the world right now so I'm self-conscious when people react negatively towards me. I'm never sure if it's me or them.
Shamelessly Plays "the game": You know, if you appreciate my perspectives you could consider following my Notes which help boost my stats+credibility and by extension grow an audience ;) but I'm 100000% ribbin ya. No expectations here.
As a general response to your reply, I think I failed to communicate precisely how I've noticed my internal monologue change over the years. I think you're mistaking some of what I've written about the past, or as explanation to be the same state where I am now.
Good things can come out of bad things. I don't think I've ever denied that there are productive internal monologues, but this piece is intended to be more useful to those who have toxic ones. I specifically outline curating thoughts at the end, talking about what I've found helpful.
"Do you notice how everything you say leads back to the online realm? The theme of this essay is more or less “IRL interactions lead to Mal-adaptions. The Digital space is what I have now and it’s just as abusive, so I need to be more selective about my digital space intake” "
That is absolutely not at all what I am saying, and I hope that is not a common interpretation of my piece. You're right to point out that online interactions are incredibly abusive and toxic which is the focus of my work writing LSN. But you'll notice this piece is included in my OTHER stack, which has covered many ways in which my IRL life has changed from IRL engagement. That said, I've noticed firsthand that it's not really possible to share authentic IRL experiences by recording them.
For example I put up a video of me shoveling snow, and that was a fantastic experience. (https://microdosingfailure.substack.com/p/shoveling) Does putting it online mean a shameful return to the digital realm? I "overshare" enough as it is, I don't feel the need to broadcast every IRL experience, for OPSEC reasons if nothing else. I worry that you're reading too much in to particular metaphors I've used to explain things simply because they are readily at hand.
"Have you ever thought that maybe the solution is getting to know yourself in stillness and in quiet."
This is a good suggestion. Not one that I can particularly recommend in my circumstances. Stillness and quiet has largely evaded me. Given my disposition I would still much rather go to the gym or the pool than sit and stew with "myself".
"You keep saying “Live life” but nothing about this has anything to do with life."
You can't live life until you stop avoiding it. This piece is intended to help those who haven't even gotten that far. I am thrilled to hear you don't have the particular problems I've brought up, but I am well aware that I am not alone, just take any stats on zoomers and you'll see what I mean. But don't be overly concerned for me, as I stated in the piece I have made tremendous progress on this front. Like anything else, it takes time.
> This is a good suggestion. Not one that I can particularly recommend in my circumstances. Stillness and quiet has largely evaded me. Given my disposition I would still much rather go to the gym or the pool than sit and stew with "myself".
I mean I will share that I create silence. I'm working 10 hour days right now, but I choose to spend maybe 1-3 of them listening to sermons, I might listen to a pod cast, but increasingly the time is spent in silence just focusing on making deliveries and it's been in that silence that I'm realizing in myself a lot of the things you've said in this post about being deluded or thinking otherwise of yourself than you really are.One of the big challenges I'm coming up against is that There don't seem to be ways to socialize yourself into a better or right mind. Everything is a DEBATE, or and ARGUMENT, or CHALLENGE, or a THESIS. Guards are always up and there is no collaborative spirit culturally. I can't tell if I'm crazy, or if the world is crazy, but I think people engaging in good faith, in the spirit of elevating others would go a long way to lifting all boats so to speak.
> I am thrilled to hear you don't have the particular problems I've brought up, but I am well aware that I am not alone, just take any stats on zoomers and you'll see what I mean.
What problems did you state you had? You mentioned a stroke and vision problems. I don't have those problems. You've mentioned the arrogance of those with inner speech twisting it into a superiority thing, I agreed with you and thanked you for sticking up for that. I feel like I've also kinda told you "Hey man a lot of these problems that stem from short sightedness or arrogance I've been realizing about myself and trying to fix them, good on you for pointing these things out" You talk about having fears and not feeling safe, guy let me tell you I'm living that life RIGHT NOW. I can empathize with that more than you know.
I guess I'm not understanding why this is coming across so confrontational to you because I've thanked you for some of the things you've said, quoted you to directly respond, and I've sought to understand. I haven't attacked you, Called you less than, just offered perspectives and begged forgiveness if they are too forward, which you have not said they were. Isn't that what we're on Substack to do to talk and cultivate understanding?
For what it's worth I recognize and apologize for being defensive about this. A lot of this discussion is pretty close to heart and I'm still learning how to talk about such thorny topics.
I was referring to the problem of a toxic internal monologue and problems that are caused by it. You had already stated you hadn't had that particular problem and that's part of the cause of our impasse.
That said much of what you wrote came across as very disconnected from what I experience. I felt as though you were arguing with assumptions made about me, which was jarring because things have changed dramatically so I can see both sides of the point.
To reference your other post (I regret splitting this up)
> "I would appreciate that, but my honest intention was just trying to straight-forwardly say "If you consume crappy depressing content, don't be surprised when you feel crappy and depressed""
This comes across as not recognizing the full scope of the problem in a particularly callous way. This presumes that one's mental state is entirely their own fault and not also potentially the result of abusers which is precisely the point I'm attempting to rebut. I think it's terrible to place all the blame on kids and social media when there are many "large elephants" in the room that people will never bring up.
A big part of the reason why I feel so strongly about this is that I have noticed a radical communication barrier between generations because of the lack of shared experiences you bring up. This was an attempt to try to bridge some understanding. (To be fair you look about my age so I'm assuming this isn't necessarily the problem here...)
I do appreciate you weighing in on this because I do genuinely want to understand the finer points.
>You had already stated you hadn't had that particular problem and that's part of the cause of our impasse.
Then I misspoke, cause I do have that problem and I find myself having conversations with myself daily about what is true of me, and what is true of the person or situation that caused the toxic or intrusive thoughts. Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm finding scripture keeps me grounded enough to realize it's usually them, but I pray my hate to God and ask that I learn what his lesson which is almost always humility, forbearance, and acceptance of long-suffering. As time goes on, less and less is internalized. I try to treat people the way i treated you in this conversation. Seeking to understand, offering honest perspective, and always keeping it respectful.
>This presumes that one's mental state is entirely their own fault
so you and I have the same reaciton then. When i said "shit in/ shit out" I meant what YOU choose to put in your mind. I don't know how to explain this, but i can SEE the toxic titles in my youtube feed now. I can SEE what they say about me if I continue to watch them, so i've stopped. and for a minute there I was replacing it with Substack content, but substack is an absolute doom pit. So I had to take responsibility for this and just "No dude, I'm going to live in this day the lord has given me. I'm going to try and make it profitable, and good, that's all I can do" and started letting go of all the toxic shitty doomy out-of-my-hands content. I'm getting better at separating what I hear on substack from what's going on in real life. So that's kinda all I meant by that. But I know how miserable I was at my last job and how accepting or internalizing other people false perception of me affected me. but I had no choice but to deal with it until it became too much. So you're not wrong, We're not 100% in control, but I would also argue this is why we talk to each other, to find out what is true. I don't have people to talk about what's true in my life so it was hard.
Finally, I would say you're right about the communication gap and that's something we need to fix immediately. For cultural and truth of history reasons.
“I’m convinced those of us with hyperactive minds ‘can’t look away’ from tragedy and terror. It can be just keeping up with the news, or investigating various things, but we often fool ourselves into thinking the negativity has no cost on our psyche. I think the rational impulse to recognize and understand dangers goes into overdrive in a self-destructive capacity.” Really appreciate this article, and will share with peeps in the Sane community, thanks. (Also — no biggie — small typo, there’s an e missing in that book title, it should be “emotions”).
I would have found it for you! (In one of my many previous lives, I used to be a manager of proof-readers/copy-editors for a publishing company and I would find many things they’d missed). That said, on my own pieces, despite checking multiple times, I routinely find punctuation, grammar and phrases I want to change *after* I publish. Twenty minutes after I press “publish” is the best time to read one of my posts as it will be the most accurate, witty, grammatically correct version of itself. 🤓
About solutions, I used to overdose of Bach music for this problem that has many names, like self-sabotage.
You say: "I believe abusers weaponize this to keep their victims compliant and silent"
This reminds me of this quote:
«The price of admission to a relationship with an extreme narcissist is self-annihilation. One of my clients quipped: “Narcissists don’t have relationships; they take prisoners» ― Pete Walker, from the book 'Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving'
Many traumatized people seek out extreme narcissists. It's a marriage made in Hell. A different path, also quite popular, it to evade human contact as much as possible. To me, it seems the latter is more compatible with longevity than the former.
Loneliness is only a problem for extroverts, and for omnipotent moral busybodies. Smart people, who tend to be introverts anyway, find solace in being alone. There is no real problem. As a general rule, we have to trust our body because it wants to live.
Of course, the model of "complex trauma" is not definitive. Many people don't like it, for reasons. Others, have the hope that fMRI research will reveal actual brain injuries or deformations that explain everything.
I'm always wary of politics, and I treat all conceptual models as a potential political cult in larval phase. They are only useful for a while, before language becomes corrupt.
Gabe, my inner monologue is so strong it is deafening, and for all the reasons you have so eloquently listed. I am constantly 'writing' in my head, and thrashing out ideas, making sense of the world.
This is, quite simply, an astounding piece of writing. We are so, so, similar. This is me - every, single word. One thing that has really helped me is to walk and pray Rosary. I also look at art online and download beautiful paintings - maybe people notice that I use a lot of art in my work. Tomorrow I am going to the state gallery. Of course, I will avert my gaze when confronted with the globohomo and seek out the appropriate tableaux.
Thank you so very much for this exceptional article.
Thank you EDAU, writing this was a very helpful way for me to retrace some of my recent steps. I think you would find both the books I mentioned very helpful, given our shared experiences. But I'll warn you I found both to be quite difficult reads....
But the best insight I have from both of them is that our minds are re-programmable, and that comes with both challenges and opportunities.
I loved your comment about 'people with no internal monologues may be do-ers' which activated my almonds.
I know a really, really smart guy who is a do-er. He builds beautiful things, is constantly scribbling mathematical equations and angles, complicated lists and technical drawings, and is always on the go. His home is filled with bits of paper to this effect (do NOT touch his papers - don't do it!)
He claims to have no internal monologue and 'thinks with his hands.'
This makes me think that, in terms of genius, there are 'Dantes' and 'DaVincis.' Dantes create complicated word worlds in their brains and use words to make sense of life and the spirit. DaVincis are hammering away in the forge and the studio learning how to craft objects.
Both divinely inspired in different ways.
It also reminds me of the Vatican Library. If there were no maintenance experts in historical architecture - plumbing, electricity, masonry - old and new, the people reading and writing and curating would be sitting in the dark, electrocuted and wet, coping and seething. All the books would be lost and the building would collapse.
I never have an inner monologue. I'm always talking to you or the last person I was arguing with, or the person I want to tell a joke to, or the person I want to impress ... You get the picture. It's why my comments are so well put together, as if they're rehearsed. Sometimes dozens of times if I'm away from the computer or going to say something in person. Spontaneous speeches like 'tell us about yourself' terrify me. Even just going around the circle and saying your name.
But wait, then who's that other voice saying, 'Is that really true?' So there is an inner dialogue at least. That usually boils down to the John Mayer question: 'Am I living my life right?'
I'm with you on the learning and responding being not always productive. It's SO much easier to consume than produce. And easier to produce for immediate consumption (comments over posts) than that which no one will see for a long time (posts over book).
I'm divided about making some rules for myself vs not giving myself rules. But rules (for fules) are also a permission to not respond, not read, not meet a quota, not clear my tabs and desktop before giving myself time to just write and settle into an idea.
You went very gentle on us, Gabe, after warning us. You alluded to your childhood trauma but didn't invite us to feel it with you. I'm okay with that either way. Just so you know, for the future.
And thanks for the memes, especially 'me, believing in you.' Smiley face back atcha.
"I'm always talking to you or the last person I was arguing with, or the person I want to tell a joke to, or the person I want to impress ... You get the picture."
I genuinely wonder if that counts! I'd say one of the complicated parts of the whole discussion is that it's hard to "have a better argument" when nailing down the specifics of different people's internal experience is quite hard!
I'll also throw one more thing out there, I think the problem with people like us is we try to optimize using the environment and unfortunately the environment ha become corrupted with gaslighting, lying, coercion and just generally shit people-i-tude and that throws off what we are. It's hard to find another source of orientaion.
>This monologue has often been a roller-coaster of feelings, where I try to anticipate things.
Stop, stop it. Live in the day. 2 Corinthians 12:9, idk why that quote but like, sometimes we have to stop feeling and anticipating and live in the day and give it up to God. Just have a profitable day.
>Because of this there is a peculiar arrogance by some who assume that having an internal monologue makes one intellectually superior to those who don’t.
Thank you for saying this. Needs to be said
>There is a huge difference between rational self-doubt as and endless self-flagellation. As I’ve built up discipline, had time to reflect, and made a lot of progress losing weight I’ve begun to understand how much an internal monologue can get in the way of self-mastery.
Living this I feel like I’m over here with the slam poetry snaps of approval.
>I wholeheartedly believe that an inner monologue is a form of hyper-vigilance that develops as a survival strategy to some form of extreme or chronic insecurity.
I question this, if this were so, our inner monologues would be infallible. They’d be productive. Yet they are poisoned. More over, there are people with internal monologues that AREN’T toxic. I question (not challenge) what your philosophical diet is. Shitty inputs = shitty outputs, and shit stains…
You can purchase any perspective you want, you can look for any perspective you want on YouTube. What responsibility have YOU taken to seek healthier, higher perspectives, vs have your biases implicitly supported under a cloak of intellectualism or discovery? Part of the problem is you probably don’t know better until someone or something introduces it to you.
>Very often you’ll see people nit-picking language used on particular issues, yet others just continue on without any issue.
Fuck those people, semantic games are as big a sign of mental insufficiency as is the pattern of one talking about people over, ideas. You might call this thought ironic, but really we’re discussing behavior, not a particular person who demonstrates it.
>I can only guess, but I’m convinced those of us with hyperactive minds “can’t look away” from tragedy and terror. It can be just keeping up with the news, or investigating various things, but we often fool ourselves into thinking the negativity has no cost on our psyche. I think the rational impulse to recognize and understand dangers goes into overdrive in a self-destructive capacity.
But unfortunately, until we learn we can’t save the world we’re always going to be miserable and ON. All we can do is be strength for others and hit phase 6 as fast as possible. Loving Shepards to the sheep as it were.
>I won’t tell you to “digital disconnect” and just take breaks from it all. That’s a nice step, but I know from experience that’s a LOT easier said than done. I think the better place to start is to be more judicious about what information you’re exposing yourself to constantly. I think it’s reasonable to be afraid of hiding from the world, but it is important to remember you have to actually be able to face it, not just absorb the stimulus.
I notice something in you I feel like I see in myself, so I’m going to put this out there. Do you notice how everything you say leads back to the online realm? The theme of this essay is more or less “IRL interactions lead to Mal-adaptions. The Digital space is what I have now and it’s just as abusive, so I need to be more selective about my digital space intake” Have you ever thought that maybe the solution is getting to know yourself in stillness and in quiet, so you can find your people in real life, where there is way less toxicity / manipulation, etc? It’s just weird how everything with you goes back to the digital world and trying to make the digital world work, knowing only tangentially that you’ve had a shit experience in real life. I get that, I’ve never been as big as you but I have been pretty fat and unseemly and I know how the world treats people like us and how easy it is to be jaded, but what are you doing to get to know the new you that’s coming to live apart from technology.I say all this with love, and I hope you know I’m paying attention to your writing and getting to know YOU. I want the best for you and if this is too forward or out of turn, I apologize.
>Developing self-awareness is paradoxically a critical step. We may think by overthinking we’re self-aware, but it’s highly likely that the mental malware is driving us to avoid being self-aware.
Got spanked, humiliated and humbled by this lesson this year.
? You keep saying “Live life” but nothing about this has anything to do with life. It’s
I wanted to break this out into a separate thread, because it seems to be the root of our disagreement which this piece certainly didn't resolve. (which is fine)
"I question this, if this were so, our inner monologues would be infallible. They’d be productive. Yet they are poisoned.
Why would they be infallible? Nothing about us is, I'm not sure why this would be any different. You can injure a muscle by straining it too much, not all adaptations succeed even if they are the right ones.
"More over, there are people with internal monologues that AREN’T toxic."
I wholeheartedly agree, in many ways that's the main thrust of the piece. The toxicity is a variable (sorry for the computer word) that can be changed over time. I think it's important to consider how one goes from a toxic internal monologue to a productive one. My experience has shown me that this is possible, which lead me to wonder where they ultimately come from. I think my model is solid, but I can understand if you don't find this particularly compelling.
I would be very curious on why you think some people have internal monologues and others don't. The mainstream research on this is very sparse and I mostly just wanted to start THIS conversation. You might not see this, but I would actually LOVE to be wrong about this. I just tried to make the case as well as I could, so that the matter can be discussed in full.
The strongest argument I can think of AGAINST my position is that one could argue trauma would make one SILENCE their internal monologue. If this is true this would be highly troubling, because it would potentially mean that the majority of people are abused, rather than just the minority. But taking this position assumes that all healthy well-adjusted people have one, which many claim not to. I am genuinely curious what drives this phenomenon, and I'm very open to alternative explanations.
"I question (not challenge) what your philosophical diet is. Shitty inputs = shitty outputs, and shit stains…"
This, like the last quote in my other reply also seems needlessly combative.
>Why would they be infallible? Nothing about us is, I'm not sure why this would be any different. You can injure a muscle by straining it too much, not all adaptations succeed even if they are the right ones.
idk you logic just doesn't make sense. There is an ABUNDANCE, A SHEER FREAKING ABUNDANCE of people being treated likes crap EVERY DAY, but they continue to not have a dialog. So I don't think your correlation is causation. As well, how does it help us think our way out of our abuses, and what do you make of the fact that the inner monologue is poisoned? If it's an adaptation from abuse, why does it re-enforce the abuse?
You're arguing people can change, I agree. You're arguing their monologue can change, I agree. But I don't think abuse is a mutagenic precursor to having an inner monologue. But that's just my two cents. I'm not trying to fight you, we just seem to disagree and that's fine.
>I would be very curious on why you think some people have internal monologues and others don't.
I try not to deconstruct people anymore so I have no idea. In my past life I was a computer guy, and to be honest, It seems foolish to take guesses when billion dollar research industries can't even unlock the secret of consciousness. You think an absolute dude from texas is going to have a good insight? No way.
I will preach by saying stuff like that is why I think we're so miserable. We keeping picking at everything and everyone, Like right now. I'm not trying to argue or be combative with you, I guess I'd want to understand why it's important we explain everything about everything, why can't some things just be a mystery and us enjoy it?
>This, like the last quote in my other reply also seems needlessly combative.
I guess I can see that, I'm learning there's something about the way I talk where I'm trying to explain or analogize stuff and it comes off some sort of way. If you can help me understand that I would appreciate that, but my honest intention was just trying to straight-forwardly say "If you consume crappy depressing content, don't be suprised when you feel crappy and depressed"
This may sound like a cop-out but I wrote in the piece:
> Another detail here is that many of these things exist on a continuum. One may only need a relatively small amount of turmoil in their youth to have a particular level of adaptations. I do believe these kinds of circumstances can arise even in particularly extreme life events. I don’t see a reason to necessarily believe too strongly in a formulaic understanding of this. I definitely don’t think it’s as simple as someone having x,y,z set of experiences creates conditions a,b and c. If anything what makes this so complex is our ability to adapt to circumstances in a wide variety of ways.
My point is that none of this is simple. I am certainly not trying to say that specific forms of abuse cause specific mental quirks. I am trying to suggest that this may be one of many mechanisms at play that I find explains a lot of behavior people struggle to understand. It is perfectly fine to me that we disagree on this, I just want to explore the arguments for/against as best as I can.
"There is an ABUNDANCE, A SHEER FREAKING ABUNDANCE of people being treated likes crap EVERY DAY, but they continue to not have a dialog."
This part is interesting to me because I would say that I imagine the assaults need to be directly personal. This is just speculation on my part (as is this entire piece/argument) but I think it's absolutely plausible that many population-level trends we see are indicative that the assaults on people are absolutely taking a toll on a fundamental mental health level.
Again, I apologize for being a tad defensive and will reiterate that I do really appreciate you bringing opposing arguments to it. I am going to be thinking about this for quite some time 😅.
So one thing i will ask you in the spirit of having the conversation you're wanting to have about inner monologue: Have you ever thought that the quality of thought one exhibits having an inner monologue is what makes them a target for abuse in the first place? That it makes them sensitive or vulnerable to it or that it frustrates and angers people to the point of abuse (much like people start cussing up a storm when they're mad cause they can't express their feelings) if this is something you want to get into I'm down to take it to DMs
Thanks for the apology. I'm kinda struggling with being recieved by the world right now so I'm self-conscious when people react negatively towards me. I'm never sure if it's me or them.
Shamelessly Plays "the game": You know, if you appreciate my perspectives you could consider following my Notes which help boost my stats+credibility and by extension grow an audience ;) but I'm 100000% ribbin ya. No expectations here.
As a general response to your reply, I think I failed to communicate precisely how I've noticed my internal monologue change over the years. I think you're mistaking some of what I've written about the past, or as explanation to be the same state where I am now.
Good things can come out of bad things. I don't think I've ever denied that there are productive internal monologues, but this piece is intended to be more useful to those who have toxic ones. I specifically outline curating thoughts at the end, talking about what I've found helpful.
"Do you notice how everything you say leads back to the online realm? The theme of this essay is more or less “IRL interactions lead to Mal-adaptions. The Digital space is what I have now and it’s just as abusive, so I need to be more selective about my digital space intake” "
That is absolutely not at all what I am saying, and I hope that is not a common interpretation of my piece. You're right to point out that online interactions are incredibly abusive and toxic which is the focus of my work writing LSN. But you'll notice this piece is included in my OTHER stack, which has covered many ways in which my IRL life has changed from IRL engagement. That said, I've noticed firsthand that it's not really possible to share authentic IRL experiences by recording them.
For example I put up a video of me shoveling snow, and that was a fantastic experience. (https://microdosingfailure.substack.com/p/shoveling) Does putting it online mean a shameful return to the digital realm? I "overshare" enough as it is, I don't feel the need to broadcast every IRL experience, for OPSEC reasons if nothing else. I worry that you're reading too much in to particular metaphors I've used to explain things simply because they are readily at hand.
"Have you ever thought that maybe the solution is getting to know yourself in stillness and in quiet."
This is a good suggestion. Not one that I can particularly recommend in my circumstances. Stillness and quiet has largely evaded me. Given my disposition I would still much rather go to the gym or the pool than sit and stew with "myself".
"You keep saying “Live life” but nothing about this has anything to do with life."
You can't live life until you stop avoiding it. This piece is intended to help those who haven't even gotten that far. I am thrilled to hear you don't have the particular problems I've brought up, but I am well aware that I am not alone, just take any stats on zoomers and you'll see what I mean. But don't be overly concerned for me, as I stated in the piece I have made tremendous progress on this front. Like anything else, it takes time.
> This is a good suggestion. Not one that I can particularly recommend in my circumstances. Stillness and quiet has largely evaded me. Given my disposition I would still much rather go to the gym or the pool than sit and stew with "myself".
I mean I will share that I create silence. I'm working 10 hour days right now, but I choose to spend maybe 1-3 of them listening to sermons, I might listen to a pod cast, but increasingly the time is spent in silence just focusing on making deliveries and it's been in that silence that I'm realizing in myself a lot of the things you've said in this post about being deluded or thinking otherwise of yourself than you really are.One of the big challenges I'm coming up against is that There don't seem to be ways to socialize yourself into a better or right mind. Everything is a DEBATE, or and ARGUMENT, or CHALLENGE, or a THESIS. Guards are always up and there is no collaborative spirit culturally. I can't tell if I'm crazy, or if the world is crazy, but I think people engaging in good faith, in the spirit of elevating others would go a long way to lifting all boats so to speak.
> I am thrilled to hear you don't have the particular problems I've brought up, but I am well aware that I am not alone, just take any stats on zoomers and you'll see what I mean.
What problems did you state you had? You mentioned a stroke and vision problems. I don't have those problems. You've mentioned the arrogance of those with inner speech twisting it into a superiority thing, I agreed with you and thanked you for sticking up for that. I feel like I've also kinda told you "Hey man a lot of these problems that stem from short sightedness or arrogance I've been realizing about myself and trying to fix them, good on you for pointing these things out" You talk about having fears and not feeling safe, guy let me tell you I'm living that life RIGHT NOW. I can empathize with that more than you know.
I guess I'm not understanding why this is coming across so confrontational to you because I've thanked you for some of the things you've said, quoted you to directly respond, and I've sought to understand. I haven't attacked you, Called you less than, just offered perspectives and begged forgiveness if they are too forward, which you have not said they were. Isn't that what we're on Substack to do to talk and cultivate understanding?
For what it's worth I recognize and apologize for being defensive about this. A lot of this discussion is pretty close to heart and I'm still learning how to talk about such thorny topics.
I was referring to the problem of a toxic internal monologue and problems that are caused by it. You had already stated you hadn't had that particular problem and that's part of the cause of our impasse.
That said much of what you wrote came across as very disconnected from what I experience. I felt as though you were arguing with assumptions made about me, which was jarring because things have changed dramatically so I can see both sides of the point.
To reference your other post (I regret splitting this up)
> "I would appreciate that, but my honest intention was just trying to straight-forwardly say "If you consume crappy depressing content, don't be surprised when you feel crappy and depressed""
This comes across as not recognizing the full scope of the problem in a particularly callous way. This presumes that one's mental state is entirely their own fault and not also potentially the result of abusers which is precisely the point I'm attempting to rebut. I think it's terrible to place all the blame on kids and social media when there are many "large elephants" in the room that people will never bring up.
A big part of the reason why I feel so strongly about this is that I have noticed a radical communication barrier between generations because of the lack of shared experiences you bring up. This was an attempt to try to bridge some understanding. (To be fair you look about my age so I'm assuming this isn't necessarily the problem here...)
I do appreciate you weighing in on this because I do genuinely want to understand the finer points.
>You had already stated you hadn't had that particular problem and that's part of the cause of our impasse.
Then I misspoke, cause I do have that problem and I find myself having conversations with myself daily about what is true of me, and what is true of the person or situation that caused the toxic or intrusive thoughts. Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm finding scripture keeps me grounded enough to realize it's usually them, but I pray my hate to God and ask that I learn what his lesson which is almost always humility, forbearance, and acceptance of long-suffering. As time goes on, less and less is internalized. I try to treat people the way i treated you in this conversation. Seeking to understand, offering honest perspective, and always keeping it respectful.
>This presumes that one's mental state is entirely their own fault
so you and I have the same reaciton then. When i said "shit in/ shit out" I meant what YOU choose to put in your mind. I don't know how to explain this, but i can SEE the toxic titles in my youtube feed now. I can SEE what they say about me if I continue to watch them, so i've stopped. and for a minute there I was replacing it with Substack content, but substack is an absolute doom pit. So I had to take responsibility for this and just "No dude, I'm going to live in this day the lord has given me. I'm going to try and make it profitable, and good, that's all I can do" and started letting go of all the toxic shitty doomy out-of-my-hands content. I'm getting better at separating what I hear on substack from what's going on in real life. So that's kinda all I meant by that. But I know how miserable I was at my last job and how accepting or internalizing other people false perception of me affected me. but I had no choice but to deal with it until it became too much. So you're not wrong, We're not 100% in control, but I would also argue this is why we talk to each other, to find out what is true. I don't have people to talk about what's true in my life so it was hard.
Finally, I would say you're right about the communication gap and that's something we need to fix immediately. For cultural and truth of history reasons.
The end of your comment looks cut off.
“I’m convinced those of us with hyperactive minds ‘can’t look away’ from tragedy and terror. It can be just keeping up with the news, or investigating various things, but we often fool ourselves into thinking the negativity has no cost on our psyche. I think the rational impulse to recognize and understand dangers goes into overdrive in a self-destructive capacity.” Really appreciate this article, and will share with peeps in the Sane community, thanks. (Also — no biggie — small typo, there’s an e missing in that book title, it should be “emotions”).
Thanks for the correction 😅
Nice comment.
I could have used you the other day...I sent out an article, meticulously researched and edited that had a typo in the title.
I wanted to die lol.
I would have found it for you! (In one of my many previous lives, I used to be a manager of proof-readers/copy-editors for a publishing company and I would find many things they’d missed). That said, on my own pieces, despite checking multiple times, I routinely find punctuation, grammar and phrases I want to change *after* I publish. Twenty minutes after I press “publish” is the best time to read one of my posts as it will be the most accurate, witty, grammatically correct version of itself. 🤓
SAME
Gabriel, what a good post.
About solutions, I used to overdose of Bach music for this problem that has many names, like self-sabotage.
You say: "I believe abusers weaponize this to keep their victims compliant and silent"
This reminds me of this quote:
«The price of admission to a relationship with an extreme narcissist is self-annihilation. One of my clients quipped: “Narcissists don’t have relationships; they take prisoners» ― Pete Walker, from the book 'Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving'
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/38688458-complex-ptsd-from-surviving-to-thriving---a-guide-and-map-for-recoverin
Many traumatized people seek out extreme narcissists. It's a marriage made in Hell. A different path, also quite popular, it to evade human contact as much as possible. To me, it seems the latter is more compatible with longevity than the former.
Loneliness is only a problem for extroverts, and for omnipotent moral busybodies. Smart people, who tend to be introverts anyway, find solace in being alone. There is no real problem. As a general rule, we have to trust our body because it wants to live.
Of course, the model of "complex trauma" is not definitive. Many people don't like it, for reasons. Others, have the hope that fMRI research will reveal actual brain injuries or deformations that explain everything.
I'm always wary of politics, and I treat all conceptual models as a potential political cult in larval phase. They are only useful for a while, before language becomes corrupt.
Gabe, my inner monologue is so strong it is deafening, and for all the reasons you have so eloquently listed. I am constantly 'writing' in my head, and thrashing out ideas, making sense of the world.
This is, quite simply, an astounding piece of writing. We are so, so, similar. This is me - every, single word. One thing that has really helped me is to walk and pray Rosary. I also look at art online and download beautiful paintings - maybe people notice that I use a lot of art in my work. Tomorrow I am going to the state gallery. Of course, I will avert my gaze when confronted with the globohomo and seek out the appropriate tableaux.
Thank you so very much for this exceptional article.
Thank you EDAU, writing this was a very helpful way for me to retrace some of my recent steps. I think you would find both the books I mentioned very helpful, given our shared experiences. But I'll warn you I found both to be quite difficult reads....
But the best insight I have from both of them is that our minds are re-programmable, and that comes with both challenges and opportunities.
Thanks for the book recommendations.
I loved your comment about 'people with no internal monologues may be do-ers' which activated my almonds.
I know a really, really smart guy who is a do-er. He builds beautiful things, is constantly scribbling mathematical equations and angles, complicated lists and technical drawings, and is always on the go. His home is filled with bits of paper to this effect (do NOT touch his papers - don't do it!)
He claims to have no internal monologue and 'thinks with his hands.'
This makes me think that, in terms of genius, there are 'Dantes' and 'DaVincis.' Dantes create complicated word worlds in their brains and use words to make sense of life and the spirit. DaVincis are hammering away in the forge and the studio learning how to craft objects.
Both divinely inspired in different ways.
It also reminds me of the Vatican Library. If there were no maintenance experts in historical architecture - plumbing, electricity, masonry - old and new, the people reading and writing and curating would be sitting in the dark, electrocuted and wet, coping and seething. All the books would be lost and the building would collapse.
Edit: Thanks again.
I never have an inner monologue. I'm always talking to you or the last person I was arguing with, or the person I want to tell a joke to, or the person I want to impress ... You get the picture. It's why my comments are so well put together, as if they're rehearsed. Sometimes dozens of times if I'm away from the computer or going to say something in person. Spontaneous speeches like 'tell us about yourself' terrify me. Even just going around the circle and saying your name.
But wait, then who's that other voice saying, 'Is that really true?' So there is an inner dialogue at least. That usually boils down to the John Mayer question: 'Am I living my life right?'
I'm with you on the learning and responding being not always productive. It's SO much easier to consume than produce. And easier to produce for immediate consumption (comments over posts) than that which no one will see for a long time (posts over book).
I'm divided about making some rules for myself vs not giving myself rules. But rules (for fules) are also a permission to not respond, not read, not meet a quota, not clear my tabs and desktop before giving myself time to just write and settle into an idea.
You went very gentle on us, Gabe, after warning us. You alluded to your childhood trauma but didn't invite us to feel it with you. I'm okay with that either way. Just so you know, for the future.
And thanks for the memes, especially 'me, believing in you.' Smiley face back atcha.
"I'm always talking to you or the last person I was arguing with, or the person I want to tell a joke to, or the person I want to impress ... You get the picture."
I genuinely wonder if that counts! I'd say one of the complicated parts of the whole discussion is that it's hard to "have a better argument" when nailing down the specifics of different people's internal experience is quite hard!
I'll also throw one more thing out there, I think the problem with people like us is we try to optimize using the environment and unfortunately the environment ha become corrupted with gaslighting, lying, coercion and just generally shit people-i-tude and that throws off what we are. It's hard to find another source of orientaion.
Gabriel, check out Kyle Cease. I think he might resonate.